Tomar WHEY antes ou depois do treino?

[ADVOGADO_BSB]

Apesar de já ter visto artigos que tratassem sobre o tempo exato de absorção da Whey Protein assim como as demais proteínas, no momento não achei nada específico gravado em meu PC ou em livros (apenas citações de “proteína de rápida absorção”). Quando tiver tempo disponível vou procurar estas pesquisas para poder postar aqui...

Prezado Rafão,

Aguardo suas pesquisas, para podermos discutir com bases concretas, pois o que veio abaixo são apenas afirmações que abordam um único ponto de vista - qual seja, a ingestão de lactalbumina no pós treino - sem exibir em números o momento do pico de aminoácidos...

Ademais, ressalto que a única pesquisa, apresentada até o momento, onde é possível verificar o pico de aminoácidos, através de simples dedução, foi aquela da Universidade de Londres onde verifica-se que o pico ocorre em t - 100minutos após a ingestão do Wey protein.

Um abraço,

Até mais

[Pharmabio]

ADVOGADO, vc poderia postar a curva inteira que foi apresentada no trabalho pra sabermos quantos pontos foram medidos, assim fica mais fácil de interpretar o dado...

Esses etudo demonstra a NECESSIDADE DE ASSOCIAR O WHEY COM CARBOS SIMPLES...

Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise

R. M. Chandler, H. K. Byrne, J. G. Patterson and J. L. Ivy

Department of Kinesiology, University of Texas at Austin 78712.

To examine the effect of carbohydrate and/or protein supplements on the hormonal state of the body after weight-training exercise, nine experienced male weight lifters were given water (Control) or an isocaloric carbohydrate (CHO; 1.5 g/kg body wt), protein (PRO; 1.38 g/kg body wt), or carbohydrate-protein (CHO/PRO; 1.06 g carbohydrate/kg body wt and 0.41 g protein/kg) supplement immediately and 2 h after a standardized weight-training workout. Venous blood samples were drawn before and immediately after exercise and during 8 h of recovery. Exercise induced elevations in lactate, glucose, testosterone, and growth hormone. CHO and CHO/PRO stimulated higher insulin concentrations than PRO and Control. CHO/PRO led to an increase in growth hormone 6 h postexercise that was greater than PRO and Control. Supplements had no effect on insulin-like growth factor I but caused a significant decline in testosterone. The decline in testosterone, however, was not associated with a decline in luteinizing hormone, suggesting an increased clearance of testosterone after supplementation. The results suggest that nutritive supplements after weight-training exercise can produce a hormonal environment during recovery that may be favorable to muscle growth by stimulating insulin and growth hormone elevations.

Esse estudo propoe a associação de caseina com whey, uma vez que , TOMADO POS TREINO, as doses se elevam rapido demais, mas decaem rapido demais, nao aproveitando as aproximadas 3 horas de OPEN WINDOW... (Fato que por si so já prova que , se no pos treino , nao aproveita tudo, imagine no pre treino (pra fina anabolicos claro, se quiser gastar whey como carbo é uma boa medida toma-lo no pre treino)...

The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically 13C-leucine-labeled milk proteins, casein (CAS) and whey protein (WP), of different physicochemical properties were ingested as one single meal by healthy adults. Postprandial whole body leucine kinetics were assessed by using a dual tracer methodology. WP induced a dramatic but short increase of plasma amino acids. CAS induced a prolonged plateau of moderate hyperaminoacidemia, probably because of a slow gastric emptying. Whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% after CAS ingestion but not after WP ingestion. Postprandial protein synthesis was stimulated by 68% with the WP meal and to a lesser extent (+31%) with the CAS meal. Postprandial whole body leucine oxidation over 7 h was lower with CAS (272 ± 91 ?mol·kg?1) than with WP (373 ± 56 ?mol·kg?1). Leucine intake was identical in both meals (380 ?mol·kg?1). Therefore, net leucine balance over the 7 h after the meal was more positive with CAS than with WP (P < 0.05, WP vs. CAS). In conclusion, the speed of protein digestion and amino acid absorption from the gut has a major effect on whole body protein anabolism after one single meal. By analogy with carbohydrate metabolism, slow and fast proteins modulate the postprandial metabolic response, a concept to be applied to wasting situations.

E AQUI ESTA O ESTUDO QUE MOSTRA O PICO DE 62% acima da linha BASE COM 60 minutos, com posterior QUEDA DE CONCENTRAÇÃO. Esse estudo é pra tracar o perfil do whey protein 9WP) e da caseina ( CAS) pra defender seu uso junto no POS TREINO pra aproveitar a open window... O marcador utilizado foi 2H3 leucina, um metabolito de ambas proteinas, ou seja, so aparece APOS A ABSORÇÃO da proteina.

RESULTS

Tracer Enrichments. The pattern of the i.v. tracer enrichment after protein ingestion was similar whatever the infused tracer was ([2H3]- or [13C]leucine). Therefore, for the sake of simplicity, only the 2H3 tracer values are presented on Fig. 2 B. After WP ingestion, the i.v. tracer enrichment reached a nadir (?62% vs. baseline) at 60 min and was back to baseline after 4 h. After CAS ingestion, the nadir was less pronounced (?30% at 40 min), but the dilution of the i.v. tracer remained fairly constant throughout the study. The difference between the two patterns was significant at time 80 and from 260 to 420 min.

A mirror image was obtained for the oral tracer (Fig. 2 C). The 13C tracer appeared within 20 min into the plasma for both proteins. There was a high and transient (4-5 h) peak with WP. By contrast, 13C leucine derived from CAS plateaued during 6-7 h. Again, the difference between the two patterns was significant from 40 to 120 and from 180 to 420 min.

Leucine Kinetics. Leucine rates of appearance. Fig. 3 A-C: Total Leu Ra dramatically increased after ingestion of WP (from 1.49 ± 0.13 to 4.21 ± 0.33 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 80 min). It increased less after the CAS meal (from 1.55 ± 0.18 to 2.05 ± 0.32 ?mol·kg?1·min?1, at 80 min, P < 0.01 CAS vs. WP and vs. baseline) (Fig. 3 A). Total Leu Ra then returned to basal values after 360 min for 13C-WP (1.49 ± 0.08 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 360 min) but remained elevated for 13C-CAS (1.74 ± 0.26 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 360 min, P < 0.05 for CAS vs. WP).

Exo Leu Ra followed the same pattern with a smaller but prolonged influx of dietary leucine from the CAS meal compared with the WP meal (Fig. 3 . The areas under the curve were 300 ± 35 and 356 ± 35 ?mol·kg?1 for CAS and WP, respectively (not significant).

Endo Leu Ra, an index of protein breakdown, did not significantly change after the WP meal. It was progressively and durably inhibited from 120 to 420 min with CAS. Mean Endo Leu Ra between 180 and 420 min were 1.08 ± 0.07 and 1.38 ± 0.04 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 for CAS and WP, respectively.

Leucine oxidation. Fig. 4 A and B: Total Leu Ox, determined from the UL-WP and UL-CAS studies (i.v. infused 13C leucine), increased with both proteins (Fig. 4 A). With WP, the magnitude of the increase (from 0.48 ± 0.13 at baseline to 1.50 ± 0.33 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 100 min) was much larger than with CAS (0.35 ± 0.11 at baseline to 0.78 ± 0.34 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 120 min). Total Leu Ox returned to baseline 420 min after WP ingestion; after CAS ingestion, it remained slightly elevated (0.53 ± 0.15 ?mol·kg?1·min?1) but not statistically different from baseline. Postprandial Total Leu Ox over 420 min, expressed as areas under the curve, was 373 ± 56 ?mol·kg?1 and 272 ± 91 ?mol·kg?1, respectively, for WP and CAS (P < 0.05).

Exo Leu Ox, displayed in Fig. 4 B, increased rapidly after WP ingestion and was completed after 420 min; the areas under the curve represented 31% of the ingested leucine. The time course was different after CAS ingestion, with a pseudo-plateau between 120 and 360 min. It did not return to baseline at the end of the study, and it represented 24% of the ingested leucine, a value not significantly different from the one of WP.

NOLD. Fig. 4 C: Total NOLD (i.e., total protein synthesis) was stimulated by 68% and 31% (average from 40 to 140 min) with WP and CAS, respectively, the difference between the two diets being not significant although there was a trend for a higher protein synthesis with WP.

Postprandial leucine balance. Postprandial leucine balance over 420 min was positive for the CAS meal (141 ± 96 ?mol·kg?1) and not different from zero for the WP meal (11 ± 36 ?mol·kg?1; P < 0.05, CAS vs. WP). In the last study (UL-CAS 30 g), three subjects received an amount of CAS isonitrogenous to the WP meal but with a lower leucine content. Total Leu Ox was 268 ± 36 ?mol·kg?1 (areas under the curve), and postprandial leucine balance over 420 min was positive (48 ± 33 ?mol·kg?1).

[ADVOGADO_BSB]

Prezado Pharma,

Inicialmente, gostaria de agradecer o texto, pois ele corrobora o meu ponto de vista. Basta vc continuar a leitura e não parar no ponto que te interessa.

E AQUI ESTA O ESTUDO QUE MOSTRA O PICO DE 62% acima da linha BASE COM 60 minutos, com posterior QUEDA DE CONCENTRAÇÃO. Esse estudo é pra tracar o perfil do whey protein 9WP) e da caseina ( CAS) pra defender seu uso junto no POS TREINO pra aproveitar a open window... O marcador utilizado foi 2H3 leucina, um metabolito de ambas proteinas, ou seja, so aparece APOS A ABSORÇÃO da proteina.

RESULTS

Tracer Enrichments. The pattern of the i.v. tracer enrichment after protein ingestion was similar whatever the infused tracer was ([2H3]- or [13C]leucine). Therefore, for the sake of simplicity, only the 2H3 tracer values are presented on Fig. 2 B. After WP ingestion, the i.v. tracer enrichment reached a nadir (?62% vs. baseline) at 60 min and was back to baseline after 4 h. After CAS ingestion, the nadir was less pronounced (?30% at 40 min), but the dilution of the i.v. tracer remained fairly constant throughout the study. The difference between the two patterns was significant at time 80 and from 260 to 420 min. A mirror image was obtained for the oral tracer (Fig. 2 C). The 13C tracer appeared within 20 min into the plasma for both proteins. There was a high and transient (4-5 h) peak with WP. By contrast, 13C leucine derived from CAS plateaued during 6-7 h. Again, the difference between the two patterns was significant from 40 to 120 and from 180 to 420 min.

Leucine Kinetics. Leucine rates of appearance. Fig. 3 A-C: Total Leu Ra dramatically increased after ingestion of WP (from 1.49 ± 0.13 to 4.21 ± 0.33 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 80 min). It increased less after the CAS meal (from 1.55 ± 0.18 to 2.05 ± 0.32 ?mol·kg?1·min?1, at 80 min, P < 0.01 CAS vs. WP and vs. baseline) (Fig. 3 A). Total Leu Ra then returned to basal values after 360 min for 13C-WP (1.49 ± 0.08 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 360 min) but remained elevated for 13C-CAS (1.74 ± 0.26 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 360 min, P < 0.05 for CAS vs. WP).

Exo Leu Ra followed the same pattern with a smaller but prolonged influx of dietary leucine from the CAS meal compared with the WP meal (Fig. 3 . The areas under the curve were 300 ± 35 and 356 ± 35 ?mol·kg?1 for CAS and WP, respectively (not significant).

Endo Leu Ra, an index of protein breakdown, did not significantly change after the WP meal. It was progressively and durably inhibited from 120 to 420 min with CAS. Mean Endo Leu Ra between 180 and 420 min were 1.08 ± 0.07 and 1.38 ± 0.04 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 for CAS and WP, respectively.

Leucine oxidation. Fig. 4 A and B: Total Leu Ox, determined from the UL-WP and UL-CAS studies (i.v. infused 13C leucine), increased with both proteins (Fig. 4 A). With WP, the magnitude of the increase (from 0.48 ± 0.13 at baseline to 1.50 ± 0.33 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 100 min) was much larger than with CAS (0.35 ± 0.11 at baseline to 0.78 ± 0.34 ?mol·kg?1·min?1 at 120 min). Total Leu Ox returned to baseline 420 min after WP ingestion; after CAS ingestion, it remained slightly elevated (0.53 ± 0.15 ?mol·kg?1·min?1) but not statistically different from baseline. Postprandial Total Leu Ox over 420 min, expressed as areas under the curve, was 373 ± 56 ?mol·kg?1 and 272 ± 91 ?mol·kg?1, respectively, for WP and CAS (P < 0.05).

Exo Leu Ox, displayed in Fig. 4 B, increased rapidly after WP ingestion and was completed after 420 min; the areas under the curve represented 31% of the ingested leucine. The time course was different after CAS ingestion, with a pseudo-plateau between 120 and 360 min. It did not return to baseline at the end of the study, and it represented 24% of the ingested leucine, a value not significantly different from the one of WP.

NOLD. Fig. 4 C: Total NOLD (i.e., total protein synthesis) was stimulated by 68% and 31% (average from 40 to 140 min) with WP and CAS, respectively, the difference between the two diets being not significant although there was a trend for a higher protein synthesis with WP.

Postprandial leucine balance. Postprandial leucine balance over 420 min was positive for the CAS meal (141 ± 96 ?mol·kg?1) and not different from zero for the WP meal (11 ± 36 ?mol·kg?1; P < 0.05, CAS vs. WP). In the last study (UL-CAS 30 g), three subjects received an amount of CAS isonitrogenous to the WP meal but with a lower leucine content. Total Leu Ox was 268 ± 36 ?mol·kg?1 (areas under the curve), and postprandial leucine balance over 420 min was positive (48 ± 33 ?mol·kg?1).

[Pharmabio]

Ué , mas que sonda vc acha que o estudo usou? Os valores de leucina são de maior meia vida, concorda, isso significa que enquanto a leucina apresentou o pico de DIFERENCA ENTRE AS CURVAS em 80 minutos, o resto da curva já estava abaixando de acordo com a sonda IV...

Gostaria que interpretasse o texto que negritou pra explicar como funcionaria essa teoria... Vc esta tomando amino só pra tomar LEUCINA... LEUCINA é BCAA rapaz... Com whey queremo AMINOACIDOS de rápida absorção.... hehehehe...

[Pharmabio]

Só pra constar, a maioria dos Wheys importados apresentam 25% de BCAA na formulação.

Essa nova familia de suplementos de Whey + caseina vem justamente por que com o whey vc aproveita melhor a janela de oportunidade do pos treino usando um amino de rápida + um carbo pra aumentar a insulina (simples) + uma proteina de lenta (que chega a durar 7 horas) assim, vc preenche o pico de sintese proteica, bem como a longevidade da demanda proteina mantendo o balanco nitrogenado sempre positivo, diminuindo assim as chances de catabolismo proteico.

O outro uso é PERFEITAMENTE VIAVEL, especialmente se vc suplementa apenas com whey, pois, COMO JA EXPLANADO PELO COLEGA RAFÃO, a alanina será convertida a glicose via piruvato, tornando assim o efeito anticatabolico proteino do WHEY em um mero carbo de rapida absorção....

Whey protein (60R$ - barato)

Dextrosol (17 reais - 500 gramas)

Ou seja, ta com dinheiro sobrando, pode usar o whey durante todo o dia, mas se vc quer uso racional de suplementação, utilize o whey do modo que foi projetado, pesquisado pela industria e desenvolvido...

[navarro]

POR CAUSA DISSO QUE EU TOMO ANTES E DEPOIS, E FAZ MUUIIIIITTTOOOO EFEITO.

+ CREATINA

+ AMINO 2222

[Pharmabio]

Pode apostar, pra quem tem disponibilidade financeira, é a melhor coisa... Antes e depois, preferencialmente com carbo simples, e enriqeucido com mais bcaa... Mas nem todo mundo pode né... Aí tem que otimizar...

[rafão]

ei rafao, vc acha q eu tomando o whey protein com leite tenho a absorcao prejudicada?

[]'s

O ideal mesmo seria a ingestão com água para aproveitar ao máximo sua rápida absorção. Eu particularmente uso com 150ml de água + 150ml de leite desnatado...

FALOW

[rafão]

Advogado, ninguém disse que você não pode usar Whey antes do treinamento. Você pode usar, mas o horário em que ela será melhor aproveitada (para sua função de origem) sem duvida será no pós treino. Da mesma forma que não adianta ingerir apenas Whey após o treino sem um carboidrato de alto IG (ela será usada no metabolismo energético). Como já dito, o básico no pós treino é Whey + Carbo alto IG. Após 45-60 min vc faz uma refeição sólida com carbos + proteínas, ou então como o Pharma disse usa uma proteína de absorção gradativa. Isso é o básico, claro que vc pode adicionar creatina, bcaa, etc...

FALOW

[Rafael Dickinson]

O ideal mesmo seria a ingestão com água para aproveitar ao máximo sua rápida absorção. Eu particularmente uso com 150ml de água + 150ml de leite desnatado...

FALOW

valeu

[]'s